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The W - Current Events & Politics - 30% think rape is deserved if.....
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corneilius
Loukanika








Since: 7.11.05
From: UK

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.17
Hiya Folks,

Todays two top headlines from the UK say that thiry percent or so people believe that a girl/woman who is a) flirtatious b)wearing provocative clothing or c) drunk "gets what she deserves" if she is the victim of a rape, and The UK is set to build many more nuclear power stations..

I wonder how it is in the US on these issues?



"Do what you love, it's your gift to Universe"
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Oliver
Scrapple








Since: 20.6.02
From: Kolob

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
    Originally posted by corneilius
    Hiya Folks,

    Todays two top headlines from the UK say that thiry percent or so people believe that a girl/woman who is a) flirtatious b)wearing provocative clothing or c) drunk "gets what she deserves" if she is the victim of a rape, and The UK is set to build many more nuclear power stations..

    I wonder how it is in the US on these issues?
Linking is good:

Rape Story link (dailymail.co.uk), and the Nuclear Power Plant story (theaustralian.news.com.au).

Interesting stories, by the way.

(edited by Oliver on 21.11.05 0915)


oldschoolhero
Knackwurst








Since: 2.1.02
From: nWo Country

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.98
The rape article makes me lose faith in humankind. It also makes me question exactly where and when the polling was done. As pessimistic as I am about society as a whole I just can't believe that such a high percentage is so disgustingly ignorant.



"That Squirrel Can Waterski!"

cranlsn
Liverwurst








Since: 18.3.02
From: Sussex, WI

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.72

I'll look further when I get home (careful about what I click on at work ), but can anyone fill me in:

Does the story contain the phrasing of the question? If they asked is a provacatively dressed woman more likely to draw attention, then "paraphrased" a positive response into "she deserved it" the poll takers need to be taken to task.

If they asked "did she deserve" it and people responded yes, then I too have to worry about those folks (and people in general).






spf
Scrapple








Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.57
It seems the poll draws a distinction between "totally responsible" and "partially responsible" as to the culpability of the woman in a rape.

    Originally posted by Daily Mail
    If the woman was drunk, 4pc said she was totally responsible and 26pc said she was partially responsible.

    If the woman behaved in a flirtatious manner, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 28pc said she was partially responsible.

    If the woman failed to say "no" clearly to the man, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 29pc said she was partially responsible.

    If the woman was wearing sexy or revealing clothing, 6pc said she was totally responsible and 20pc said she was partially responsible.

    If it is known that the woman has many sexual partners, 8pc said she was totally responsible and 14pc said she was partially responsible.

    If she is alone and walking in a dangerous or deserted area, 5pc said she was totally responsible and 17pc said she was partially responsible.



(edited by spf on 21.11.05 1300)


Stilton
Frankfurter








Since: 7.2.04
From: Canada

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.72
I find this distressing beyond words.

What I want to know is, how many of the men they polled are
actual rapists.



He was a popular attraction until he choked to death on a corn kernel.
ShotGunShep
Frankfurter








Since: 20.2.03

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.67
I just read Journal of My Life by Jacques-Louis Menetra. It is a autobiography of an 18th century French artisan who lived a life of sex, violence and partying during his tour de France.
It is a very interesting read. He sees himself as a heroic character. He saves babies, rescues drowning people and heals fevers.

He has many sexual "conquests" and admits to several rapes. To him and his companions, an occasional rape was socially acceptable. In one instanc, he is traveling with a friend when they come across a shepherd boy and girl "in action". His friend and he hold the boy at knife point and take turns with the girl who was half "willing".

There are many other strange and cruel things he does, but thinks nothing of. It's a good read if you are interested in this sort of topic.
corneilius
Loukanika








Since: 7.11.05
From: UK

Since last post: 3283 days
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.69
I am shocked by the way so many people refuse to FEEL what this is all about.

People (mostly men, some women, I think) will use their minds to TALK about it, and not allow the feelings that tell us that all unconsented activities are a form of rape, and that consent by manipulation, threats or marketing is just as much a concern.

The point behind the original post is this : Is not the use of Nuclear Power, Nuclear Bombs a form of rape. Did you give your consent? Did your parents give their consent?

Democracy has been an intellectual exercise, and unless we are allowed to, encouraged to FEEL with our full awareness what things and events mean to us and are then guided by that, we are being raped. And for us in the west, it's a comfortable rape. Innit?





"Do what you love, it's your gift to Universe"
ShotGunShep
Frankfurter








Since: 20.2.03

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.69
Corneilius, what the hell are you talking about?

First of all, in populist government, if 50.1 of the population want something, and 49.9 vote against it, are those 49.9 being raped in your opinion?

And can you tell me what is wrong with nuclear power? I think it is one of the few things that Europe has done right recently.
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.84
    Originally posted by corneilius
    Is not the use of Nuclear Power, Nuclear Bombs a form of rape.
No, not really.

At least, NOW I know why you didn't start two threads.



CRZ
samoflange
Lap cheong








Since: 22.2.04
From: Cambridge, MA

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.80
    Originally posted by ShotGunShep
    And can you tell me what is wrong with nuclear power? I think it is one of the few things that Europe has done right recently.


There is a whole lot wrong with nuclear power. This thread's not exactly the place to get into it though.



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Tenken347
Boudin blanc








Since: 27.2.03
From: Parts Unknown

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.75
Sorry, disregard this post. It doesn't add anything to the debate.

(edited by Tenken347 on 23.11.05 0935)
corneilius
Loukanika








Since: 7.11.05
From: UK

Since last post: 3283 days
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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.53
You said "Corneilius, what the hell are you talking about?"

-let me explain, by answering your questions

you said "First of all, in populist government, if 50.1 of the population want something, and 49.9 vote against it, are those 49.9 being raped in your opinion?"

I say : Have you ever come across "The Bankers Charter"? It describes the technique of governance and control by offering people/voters a choice of either/or (democrat/republican)(labour/conservative/liberal) regarding questions of little or no importance, whilst the real issues are not dealt with, and the negative effects are hidden from view. All current forms of "democratic" and "autocratic" governance fall within this description. Thus yes, it is as if the population were raped, inso far that their consent was not obtained through transparent discussion. Populations were manipulated. eg: Current issues related to this - THE IRAQ WAR - ENRON SCANDAL - EDUCATION controlled by Business - remember rape is primarily not about sex, it about power. And control.


You said "And can you tell me what is wrong with nuclear power? I think it is one of the few things that Europe has done right recently."

I say : Nuclear Power was always, and still is a cover for Nuclear Weapons development. A combination of improved efficiency, reduced wastage, reduced consumption and a genuine committment to the use and developement of sustainable technologies would provide more energy than nuclear could safely provide, given the sheer cost of building, maintaining and de-commissioning nuclear technologies. Not to mention the toxicity issues of nuclear power.

700 times more energy than the UK use falls on the UK every day - from the sun.

Finally Nuclaer is an anagram of unclear.



"Do what you love, it's your gift to Universe"
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.17
    Originally posted by corneilius
    Finally Nuclaer is an anagram of unclear.
1. Also, it's a misspelling

2. WOW, I'M TOTALLY CONVINCED!

So....what is it that you want? More solar power and...less rape? I think we can all get behind that. Or are you saying you want some other kind of government, but not telling us what that might be? Or....am I not going to hear from you again for another six days and then regret having asked any of this?



CRZ
ShotGunShep
Frankfurter








Since: 20.2.03

Since last post: 2574 days
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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.38
No I haven't heard of the Bankers Charter. And your explanation is either underexplained or imbecilic.

Your willingness to believe in conspiracies is almost unbelievable.

I mean, did you just use the an anagram as evidence? Holy shit! I thought public schooling in the US was bad!!!

I mean an anagram! Seriously.

corneilius
Loukanika








Since: 7.11.05
From: UK

Since last post: 3283 days
Last activity: 3282 days
#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.29
yes it was a mispelling ........ as for convincing anyone, it's more about stimulating a conversation, and hopefully a consideration who we are, based on reality, as opposed to myth..

What do I want? What I want is to be part of a world community of people where transparency is the norm, where we are safe with each other.

I want that the insecurity of polarised mindsets such as "this side, that side", "male/female", "rich/poor", "gay/hetero", "black/white", "christian/muslim", "good/bad" (just to name a few, there are so many!) are seen for what they are - illusions, dangerous illusions.

We all live in, and our very lives depend utterly upon, a bio-diverse organic and sustainable environment. One that supports growth of all its constituents. We call it Earth. That bio-diversity is being studied by our science, and was understood, and felt by our distant ancestors. The new science arising, emerging from those studies is called bio-diversity. This science shows us, clearly, that the whole system works together, in myriad ways. It shows that there are no polarisations in living systems.

However there are polarisations in conditioned, brainwashed mindsets.

Rape, whether it is the "sexual" assault of one human, upon another, or the "finacial" assault of one country upon another, or the "violent" assault of one gang upon another is a product of that polaised mind-set.

Change the mind-set, solve the problems.

Or one could say, it is not possible to solve a problem if I am in denial about that problem.

Polarisation is in denial of reality.

I hope this helps you understand my basic viewpoint.

as regards the use on an anagram ... it was not supposed to be evidence of anything, except, possibly my sense of humour. The Bankers Charter is irrelevant, the point about a political control mechanism is not. Pity you missed the point.

We can learn together. maybe.




"Do what you love, it's your gift to Universe"
CRZ
Big Brother
Administrator








Since: 9.12.01
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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.19
    Originally posted by corneilius
    What do I want? What I want is to be part of a world community of people where transparency is the norm, where we are safe with each other.
Well, I'm honoured you stopped HERE, but.....man, it's just a message board. You can be as safe and transparent (AND TOTALLY NUDE!) as you want, but you also have to accept the challenges that may arise from it.

    I want that the insecurity of polarised mindsets such as "this side, that side", "male/female", "rich/poor", "gay/hetero", "black/white", "christian/muslim", "good/bad" (just to name a few, there are so many!) are seen for what they are - illusions, dangerous illusions.
Recognising differences isn't necessarily yielding to polarisation, however, is it? Just because I don't happen to buy into the idea that "the use of nuclear power" is equivalent to "rape" doesn't make me POLARISED or even POLARISING, does it? Or does it?

    We all live in, and our very lives depend utterly upon, a bio-diverse organic and sustainable environment. One that supports growth of all its constituents. We call it Earth.
What's this "we" business? Speak for yourself!

(Okay, I call it Earth, too. You got me there.)

    That bio-diversity is being studied by our science, and was understood, and felt by our distant ancestors. The new science arising, emerging from those studies is called bio-diversity. This science shows us, clearly, that the whole system works together, in myriad ways. It shows that there are no polarisations in living systems.

    However there are polarisations in conditioned, brainwashed mindsets.
Have you checked out "WarriorWeb?"

Also, if you don't mind me asking, what's your degree in?

    Rape, whether it is the "sexual" assault of one human, upon another, or the "finacial" assault of one country upon another, or the "violent" assault of one gang upon another is a product of that polaised mind-set.
Yeah, here's where you REALLY start to lose me. Just trying to distill this down, you're saying....rape occurs because of polarisation? Really? Rape?

    Change the mind-set, solve the problems.

    Or one could say, it is not possible to solve a problem if I am in denial about that problem.

    Polarisation is in denial of reality.

    I hope this helps you understand my basic viewpoint.
Crystal clear now. Thanks.

    as regards the use on an anagram ... it was not supposed to be evidence of anything, except, possibly my sense of humour. The Bankers Charter is irrelevant, the point about a political control mechanism is not. Pity you missed the point.

    We can learn together. maybe.

Seriously, he's over at www.ultimatewarrior.com/choice.htm and I have to say, your writing style is a DEAD ringer for his, although I'm not sure you're on the same side of the (polarising) political spectrum.

Look, apologies in advance and all that, and I'm sorry if this appears a flip reply, but (1) that's because it is and (2) you speak in such abstract terms while saying (in my opinion) so very little of substance that it's more trouble than it's worth for me to attempt to engage you on an intellectual level with which we'd both be comfortable. (You can read that last sentence any way you want.)

You want people to change their mindsets? Okay, how? What then? What's your plan? Does it start with eliminating nuclear power (or as you call it, "rape") and how exactly does this make things better? If you were the only guy responsible for making these decisions - and I hate hypotheticals too, but maybe this will help me understand your line of thinking - would you seriously plan on eliminating nuclear power in favour of...what, solar power? Stick with coal? More oil from the Middle East? What? Or are you planning on "science" delivering a magic power source none of us have heard on? 'cause, you know, I like science too, but I wouldn't put the farm down on something happening NOW....or even, "in time."

Maybe I'm too old and cynical. Or rational? Or maybe the older I get, the closer "cynical" and "rational" get? What am I doing with my life? Why are we here? Will I get fries with that? INSERT COIN



CRZ
ShotGunShep
Frankfurter








Since: 20.2.03

Since last post: 2574 days
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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.38
Trying to eliminate the differences in people usually ends up in genocide. It is important to recognize and embrace our differences.
For example, blacks are at a higher risk for certain diseases than whites(and vice versa) are and therefore should have certain medical exams at certain ages.

Differences are real, and denying those differences is just stupid and PC.


Our distant ancestors had some sort of spiritual connection with the earth? I'm gonna have to call that a big old myth. Native Americans only killed what they needed and used every part of their prey. Oh yeah? Ever heard of a buffalo drop? Real conservationist.

Oh and I got a question about your relative morality. If there is no good/bad? Why can't we rape anything we want?

You are also operating under the false premise that we live in a world where solutions are possible. That simply isn't true. There will always be some amount of poverty, war and hate. You should be careful about how utopian your thinking is.
corneilius
Loukanika








Since: 7.11.05
From: UK

Since last post: 3283 days
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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.16
At this point of the conversation, I would be interested more in what you think.

What are your thoughts on rape?

More importantly, what are your feelings regarding rape?





"Do what you love, it's your gift to Universe"
rinberg
Boudin rouge








Since: 30.1.02
From: South Georgia

Since last post: 1054 days
Last activity: 28 days
#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.21
I have followed this conversation with one eyebrow raised, not out of interest, but out of disbelief for the amount of thinking it takes to relate a dispicable crime like rape to supposed power mongering from world leaders. This thread began simply enough discussing rape, in spite of the initial attempt to tie in nuclear power plants. Frankly, nobody took notice of the second half of that first sentence. It seemed unrelated to the thread title and unrelated to the rest of the sentence. But then you come back with this:
    Originally posted by corneilius
    "People (mostly men, some women, I think) will use their minds to TALK about it, and not allow the feelings that tell us that all unconsented activities are a form of rape, and that consent by manipulation, threats or marketing is just as much a concern."

which is asanine.

So, if I'm manipulated by marketing into buying a cheeseburger at McSpanky's, that is equivalent to rape? If I have been mislead into believing that a monster (Saddam Hussein for example) has WMD capabilities and we go to war based on this false premise, this is rape?

Mind you, I'm not condoning the Iraq war, but I still don't equate it with rape. Nothing good comes from rape. There is some good that comes from what we are doing in Iraq, whether we were justified in doing it or not.

My thoughts on rape? Simply this: Inexcusable, intolerable, punishable by death.
My feelings regarding rape? See my thoughts on rape. 'Nuff said.

On a side note: Let's not hijack this thread into Iraq. It's just an example. If you want to talk about Iraq, start a new thread.



"The truth is often a terrible weapon of aggression. It is possible to lie, and even to murder with the truth."
ALFRED ADLER
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