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The W - Baseball - 2010 HOF nominees (Page 2)
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thecubsfan
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Since: 10.12.01
From: Aurora, IL

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 10.00
Of the new guys on the ballot, Larkin's at least the second best, though he probably has to make a case in lot of people's minds. He does seem like a guy who will be sticking on the ballot a while.



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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

Since last post: 1 day
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.63
I wouldn't be shocked if Larkin gets in this year, albeit by a tight margin. Played his whole career in one city, put up very good numbers, won an MVP, and wasn't a steroid guy (that we know of), which some writers will choose to reward given that Larkin played most of his career in the steroid era.

    Originally posted by BoromirMark
    You're also the one who called a writer "dippy" for rightly giving a 1st place Cy Young vote to Justin Verlander, who was tied atop the AL in wins and dominated in the AL in strikeouts with an ERA just decimal points higher than the heralded King Felix. So I'm assuming you either hate Detroit, don't know/haven't watched baseball, or both.


I technically called the Detroit writer dippy for voting Cabrera for MVP (and it turned out it wasn't that same guy anyway). I don't hate Detroit whatsoever. In fact, if I had a vote, I'd probably put Alan Trammell on my Hall of Fame ballot. But if Jack Morris was inducted, he would instantly become the worst pitcher inducted into the Hall in the last 20 or so years. Someone who would be hard-pressed to make a 'ten best pitchers of the 1980's' list isn't a Hall of Famer. Morris had a career ERA+ of 105, so he was barely above average, let alone Hall-worthy.



Kirk, crackers are a family food. Happy families. Maybe single people eat crackers, we don't know. Frankly, we don't want to know. It's a market we can do without.
BigDaddyLoco
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Since: 2.1.02

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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.32

    Someone who would be hard-pressed to make a 'ten best pitchers of the 1980's' list isn't a Hall of Famer. Morris had a career ERA+ of 105, so he was barely above average, let alone Hall-worthy.



Oh, come on now that is just a ridiculus statement. Barely above average? I'll admit his numbers are far from sexy, but I think there is more to him than the numbers. Look, I'm willing to call him a boarder line HoF inductee, I'm going mostly off memory and Jack Morris coming to town was always a pretty big deal and a game you wanted to tune into. He was a part of four World Championship teams and was the opening day starter 14 times.

At this point it's hard to take you all that seriously if you are going to call the guy barely a top ten pitcher in the 80's as well as above average.
hansen9j
Andouille








Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

Since last post: 9 days
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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.59
    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    There wasn't a better big game pitcher from that era than Jack Morris.


Jack Morris was AWFUL in the 1992 playoffs, and a non-factor on the 1993 Jays.

To me, if you're going to get in largely based on playoff success, you have to be largely stinker-free. Curt Schilling comes to mind; he's had I believe three bad playoff games ever, and one was Game 1 of the 2004 ALCS with a famously bum ankle.



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Joseph Ryder
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Since: 19.3.02
From: Seattle, WA

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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.46
    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    Oh, come on now that is just a ridiculus statement. Barely above average? I'll admit his numbers are far from sexy, but I think there is more to him than the numbers.
People keep saying this...WHAT then, past the numbers, are we forgetting?

    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    Look, I'm willing to call him a boarder line HoF inductee, I'm going mostly off memory and Jack Morris coming to town was always a pretty big deal and a game you wanted to tune into.
I think that speaks more to who was heralded at the time by the media (newspapers and SI, mostly): those who a) pitched on good, high-profile teams and b) as a result, had lots of wins. I was a kid back then who admittedly had no feelings one way or the other about the guy, but I can't see why any non-Tiger fans outside of his immediate family were excited because "Jack Morris was in town."

    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    He was a part of four World Championship teams...
So was El Duque (btw, whose ERA+ is also 5% better than Jack's). As well as a whole bunch of not-even-close-to-being-a-Hall-of-Famers.

    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    ...and was the opening day starter 14 times.
This is not very impressive. I'm more impressed that you know this than I am that Morris achieved it.

    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    There wasn't a better big game pitcher from that era than Jack Morris.
Source? Just saying it doesn't make it so. And what does "big game" mean? Playoffs? Dave Stewart was pretty good. 3.95 career ERA, but 2.67 in 133 playoff innings (Morris improved from 3.90 to 3.80 in 92 IP). Fernando Velenzuela, 3.54 career ERA, hit 1.98 in 63 playoff innings. Orel Hershiser, 3.48 career ERA, 2.59 in 132 playoff innings.

    Originally posted by hansen9j
    Jack Morris was AWFUL in the 1992 playoffs, and a non-factor on the 1993 Jays.

    To me, if you're going to get in largely based on playoff success, you have to be largely stinker-free. Curt Schilling comes to mind; he's had I believe three bad playoff games ever, and one was Game 1 of the 2004 ALCS with a famously bum ankle.
Exactly. Morris was basically the exact same pitcher in both regular season and playoff settings. Which tends to be the case for most players who accumulate a large enough sample size (see ARod, Jeter, or Pettitte). You have some great games, some mediocre games, and some bad games, and it all evens out in the end. Usually. There are exceptions (Schilling, Smoltz)...but Jack Morris sure as hell isn't one of them. And I think that's sorta the crux of the problem for us non-supporters...his entire campaign is based on people having this "gamer" memory for which there isn't a great deal of evidence.

(edited by Joseph Ryder on 8.12.09 1551)

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BoromirMark
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Since: 8.5.02
From: Milan-Ann Arbor, MI

Since last post: 182 days
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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.88
    Originally posted by Peter Gammons
    Four hits, a game-saving catch and a game-winning homer later, there was a seventh game, perhaps the best game I've ever seen. Jack Morris-John Smoltz. Morris outlasted the great Smoltz; the Twins won in the 10th, 1-0; and at 5:30 a.m., Morris came back to the field to do a Sunday Conversation for "SportsCenter."


Peter Gammons says Thanks (sports.espn.go.com)




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hansen9j
Andouille








Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

Since last post: 9 days
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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.59
If players could make the Hall of Fame based on one game, Don Larsen would be in it.



It is the policy of the documentary crew to remain true observers and not interfere with its subjects.

It's too soon to talk about the Riders...
But Go Pack Go! (8-4, 2nd NFC North)
TheBucsFan
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Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 18 hours
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.23
So odessasteps tweeted a link to this blog post by Joe Posnanski that I found really interesting:

Now, you may like Win Shares, you may not like them, you may like parts of but not other parts, you may never have even thought about them. But it’s a lifetime of baseball study put into simple numbers … it’s like shorthand into the mind of the most influential baseball thinker of the last 50 years.

OK, so here goes: Tim Raines has 390 career Win Shares. That is a lot. A whole lot. That is more than any other player on the Hall of Fame ballot. It is also more than dozens of current Hall of Famers — including Rod Carew, Wade Boggs and (yes, here we go) Roberto Clemente.

Wow. Tim Raines has more win shares than Roberto Clemente. Now, it’s a funny thing: I suspect that the fact that Raines has more win shares than Clemente actually HURTS his case more than it helps it. Why? Because Clemente has become so great in the collective imagination, so absurdly and untouchably great, that people will see that stat and throw out the entire Win Shares thing. More win shares than Clemente! Ridiculous! This stat is meaningless.

This is a natural reaction. I was talking with my friend and Royals broadcaster deluxe Joel Goldberg the other day, and he was telling me how he cannot take Ultimate Zone Rating seriously as a statistic because it has not been kind to Torii Hunter. You have to go back to 2003 to find a year when Hunter had a great UZR — in 2008, he was minus-11.5. He was better in 2009, but not enough better. Joel knows — he KNOWS — that Hunter is a great, great, great defensive center fielder. Therefore, the stat is full of bull.*


I thought it was really interesting. I've seen Raines play, but not Clemente, so it's hard for me to compare them. But I must say my initial reaction is the one he described: Win Shares can't be THAT great if it shows Raines as a superior to Clemente. But once I got passed that and thought about the more important point - that it's at least closer than I would have guessed - I think I've changed my opinion of Tim Raines and think he should be in the Hall. Not that it really matters what I think.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 17.12.09 0136)
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