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The W - Baseball - 2010 HOF nominees
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supersalvadoran
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Since: 10.1.08
From: westbury, new york

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#1 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.90
http://www.usatoday.com/​sports/​baseball/​hallfame/​2009-​11-​27-​2010-​ballot_​N.htm

Maybe it's me, but I don't think there is a definite HOF'er in this year ballot like there was last year with Rickey Henderson. That said, I would put Alomar and McGriff in the HOF out of the new candidates. Alomar was one of the best 2nd basemen ever. And McGriff was to me one of the most consisent run producers around during the 90's. Larkin is one I can't seem to decide on. He certainly has the awards to gain entry, IMO, but I never thought of him as *THE* elite SS of his time. He probably deserves to get in, but it'll probably end up like Rice's journey to get in, it's likely going to take a while. As for Martinez, while he was a decent hitter, I doubt his career numbers are big enough to get in, DH or no DH.

As for the holdovers, I still would go with Blyleven, Dawson, Morris, & Murphy. I say only Blyleven, Dawson, & Alomar have realistic shots at getting in this year, though. And even those three are far from sure locks.

(edited by supersalvadoran on 28.11.09 0524)





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Since: 24.3.02
From: Oshkosh, WI

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#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.38
To remind everyone:
Andre Dawson got 361 out of 539 votes in 2009, for 67.0%. That was his 8th year on the ballot.
Bert Blyleven got 338 out of 539 votes in 2009, for 62.7%. He was in his 12th year.
Those are the only two returning candidates who have a shot at getting elected this year.

Lee Smith got 240 out of 539 votes in 2009, for 44.5%. He was in his 7th year on the ballot.
Jack Morris got 237 out of 539 votes in 2009, for 44.0%. He was in his 10th year on the ballot.

The lowest any player has gotten on a ballot in the last twenty years and still eventually been elected was the 23.9% of the vote that Bruce Sutter got in his first year eligible. So for any of these players to get in, it's going to take probably at least 10 more years and a major change of opinion about their careers. Obviously some of these guys don't have that much time left.

Tim Raines got 122 out of 539 votes in 2009, for 22.6%. He was in his second year on the ballot.
Mark McGwire got 118 out of 539 votes in 2009, for 21.9%. He was in his third year on the ballot.
Alan Trammell got 94 out of 539 votes in 2009, for 17.4%. He was in his 8th year on the ballot.
Dave Parker got 81 out of 539 votes in 2009, for 15.0%. He is the old man in the voting, having been passed up 13 times.
Don Mattingly got 64 out of 539 votes in 2009, for 11.9%. He was in his 9th year on the ballot.
Dale Murphy got 62 out of 539 votes in 2009, for 11.5%. He was in his 11th year on the ballot.
Harold Baines got 32 out of 539 votes in 2009, for 5.9% (27 votes were needed to reach the cut-off of 5%). He was in his 3rd year on the ballot.

The BBWAA website says they have at least 575 voters this year, so 432 votes will be required for election.
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Since: 17.3.02
From: Queidersbach

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#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.45
McGriff gets my vote, if only so that I can see someone inducted wearing a Tom Emanski hat. McGriff, and to a lesser extent Emanski, helped produce back-to-back-to-back A.A.U. national champions.



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BoromirMark
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Since: 8.5.02
From: Milan-Ann Arbor, MI

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#4 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.03
JACK MORRIS AND ALAN TRAMMELL. Get them IN already, for fuck's sake.

Also Dawson, Blyleven, Alomar, and McGriff.

(edited by BoromirMark on 28.11.09 1117)



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hansen9j
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Since: 7.11.02
From: Riderville, SK

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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.53
For the sake of my childhood, please induct Alomar.



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Big Bad
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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.63
If I had a vote, McGwire, Alomar, Larkin, Raines, McGriff and Blyleven would all get in, with Trammell also probably getting the nod six days out of seven.


    JACK MORRIS AND ALAN TRAMMELL. Get them IN already, for fuck's sake.


Jack Morris is not a Hall of Famer. Why do people persist in this folly?



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Since: 2.1.02

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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.31
    Originally posted by Big Bad


      JACK MORRIS AND ALAN TRAMMELL. Get them IN already, for fuck's sake.


    Jack Morris is not a Hall of Famer. Why do people persist in this folly?


There wasn't a better big game pitcher from that era than Jack Morris. People hammer on his ERA, but the guy is a Hall of Famer.
Joseph Ryder
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Since: 19.3.02
From: Seattle, WA

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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.97
    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    There wasn't a better big game pitcher from that era than Jack Morris. People hammer on his ERA, but the guy is a Hall of Famer.

Gonna need to see some evidence. Just saying it doesn't make it so.

    Originally posted by Big Bad
    Jack Morris is not a Hall of Famer. Why do people persist in this folly?

His mustache?

(edited by Joseph Ryder on 29.11.09 0949)


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Since: 4.1.02
From: Dorchester, Ontario

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.63
    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
      Originally posted by Big Bad


        JACK MORRIS AND ALAN TRAMMELL. Get them IN already, for fuck's sake.


      Jack Morris is not a Hall of Famer. Why do people persist in this folly?


    There wasn't a better big game pitcher from that era than Jack Morris. People hammer on his ERA, but the guy is a Hall of Famer.


More accurately, he had one big game....Game Seven of the 1991 Series. In other big games (i.e. the 1992 playoffs or the 1987 ALCS) he crapped the bed. We cannot induct people in the Hall for one big game in the World Series --- you don't see people lining up to induct Don Larsen or Hideki Matsui.



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odessasteps
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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.39
    Originally posted by Big Bad
      Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
        Originally posted by Big Bad


          JACK MORRIS AND ALAN TRAMMELL. Get them IN already, for fuck's sake.


        Jack Morris is not a Hall of Famer. Why do people persist in this folly?


      There wasn't a better big game pitcher from that era than Jack Morris. People hammer on his ERA, but the guy is a Hall of Famer.


    More accurately, he had one big game....Game Seven of the 1991 Series. In other big games (i.e. the 1992 playoffs or the 1987 ALCS) he crapped the bed. We cannot induct people in the Hall for one big game in the World Series --- you don't see people lining up to induct Don Larsen or Hideki Matsui.


It's a cross-sport analogy, but they did for Joe Namath.



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TheBucsFan
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Since: 2.1.02

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.14
    Originally posted by odessasteps
      Originally posted by Big Bad
        Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
        There wasn't a better big game pitcher from that era than Jack Morris. People hammer on his ERA, but the guy is a Hall of Famer.
      More accurately, he had one big game....Game Seven of the 1991 Series. In other big games (i.e. the 1992 playoffs or the 1987 ALCS) he crapped the bed. We cannot induct people in the Hall for one big game in the World Series --- you don't see people lining up to induct Don Larsen or Hideki Matsui.
    It's a cross-sport analogy, but they did for Joe Namath.
I agree with the implication that Joe Namath is vastly overrated because of Super Bowl III, but his success spanned a lot more than one game. He twice the AFL MVP, a three-time all-AFL first team selection (and once a second team choice) and an all-pro and Pro Bowler in 1972. Hardly Joe Montana or Dan Marino, but a lot more than just one game.

EDIT: Also, he was the only quarterback to throw for 4,000 yards in a 14-game season. He was a great quarterback who suffered from a series of serious knee injuries and probably myriad personal issues. My (long-winded) point is, Joe Namath is not an accurate comparison to Jack Morris, who was an all-star four or five times (much less impressive than being all-league in football simply because of sheer numbers, in my opinion) but didn't really achieve much else of note besides that.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 30.11.09 0238)

(edited by CRZ on 30.11.09 0203)
StaggerLee
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Since: 3.10.02
From: Right side of the tracks

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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.03
The by that logic, Don Mattingly needs to be put in the HOF NOW. Great seasons until injury took away his back in his prime. Before that, he was a feared hitter, who fielded his position exceptionally well.
BoromirMark
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Since: 8.5.02
From: Milan-Ann Arbor, MI

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#13 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.88
    Originally posted by Big Bad
    Jack Morris is not a Hall of Famer. Why do people persist in this folly?


You're also the one who called a writer "dippy" for rightly giving a 1st place Cy Young vote to Justin Verlander, who was tied atop the AL in wins and dominated in the AL in strikeouts with an ERA just decimal points higher than the heralded King Felix. So I'm assuming you either hate Detroit, don't know/haven't watched baseball, or both.

    Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
    There wasn't a better big game pitcher from that era than Jack Morris. People hammer on his ERA, but the guy is a Hall of Famer.


THIS. He comes up to the mound in the 80s/early 90s, hitters are worried. He's the very definition of a big game pitcher, of an era-dominating pitcher, and needs to be in the HOF.




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Guru Zim
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 9.22
You can't argue off of one great season, or else every Cy Young winner would be HOF bound. Heck, let's look at a Morris peer - Bob Welch, 1990. What a great season! Should we argue for him too?




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Since: 19.3.02
From: Seattle, WA

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#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.46
    Originally posted by StaggerLee
    The by that logic, Don Mattingly needs to be put in the HOF NOW. Great seasons until injury took away his back in his prime. Before that, he was a feared hitter, who fielded his position exceptionally well.

Then don't forget Will Clark! Who was better than Mattingly and...well, got 4% his first year on the ballot and was dropped from the list.

    Originally posted by BoromirMark
    You're also the one who called a writer "dippy" for rightly giving a 1st place Cy Young vote to Justin Verlander, who was tied atop the AL in wins and dominated in the AL in strikeouts with an ERA just decimal points higher than the heralded King Felix. So I'm assuming you either hate Detroit, don't know/haven't watched baseball, or both.

"Rightly"?! "Decimal points"?! Ok...maybe technically, but his ERA was almost a full run worse than Hernandez (0.96) and 1.29 worse than the rightly winner, Greinke. He did have 27 more Ks than Greinke, but he also had 37 more earned runs. He also had 3 more balks than Greinke and Felix combined! He *did* wear a Detroit hat and uniform, I'll grant you that.

    Originally posted by BoromirMark
    He comes up to the mound in the 80s/early 90s, hitters are worried. He's the very definition of a big game pitcher, of an era-dominating pitcher, and needs to be in the HOF.

Again, gonna need to see some evidence. Saying it doesn't make it so. Nor does accusing people of some absurd Detroit-hating bias (or the alternative, knowing nothing about baseball when I'm guessing the opposite is true).

    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    You can't argue off of one great season, or else every Cy Young winner would be HOF bound. Heck, let's look at a Morris peer - Bob Welch, 1990. What a great season! Should we argue for him too?

Bob Welch had a higher winning pct than Jack Morris, a better WHIP, better ERA, and a better ERA+. Didn't have the mustache though sorry, or that one game in the playoffs.



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Since: 5.9.08

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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 1.86
Mattingly was one of the faces of baseball in the 80s, if he doesn't get in and some yahoo from the 50s and 60s does then its another example of how outdated this process is.
Eddie Famous
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Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

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#17 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.58

    Originally posted by lotjx
    Mattingly was one of the faces of baseball in the 80s,


So was Dwight Gooden.



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Since: 2.1.02
From: MD, USA

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#18 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.47
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Originally posted by odessasteps
        Originally posted by Big Bad
          Originally posted by BigDaddyLoco
          There wasn't a better big game pitcher from that era than Jack Morris. People hammer on his ERA, but the guy is a Hall of Famer.
        More accurately, he had one big game....Game Seven of the 1991 Series. In other big games (i.e. the 1992 playoffs or the 1987 ALCS) he crapped the bed. We cannot induct people in the Hall for one big game in the World Series --- you don't see people lining up to induct Don Larsen or Hideki Matsui.
      It's a cross-sport analogy, but they did for Joe Namath.
    I agree with the implication that Joe Namath is vastly overrated because of Super Bowl III, but his success spanned a lot more than one game. He twice the AFL MVP, a three-time all-AFL first team selection (and once a second team choice) and an all-pro and Pro Bowler in 1972. Hardly Joe Montana or Dan Marino, but a lot more than just one game.

    EDIT: Also, he was the only quarterback to throw for 4,000 yards in a 14-game season. He was a great quarterback who suffered from a series of serious knee injuries and probably myriad personal issues. My (long-winded) point is, Joe Namath is not an accurate comparison to Jack Morris, who was an all-star four or five times (much less impressive than being all-league in football simply because of sheer numbers, in my opinion) but didn't really achieve much else of note besides that.

    (edited by TheBucsFan on 30.11.09 0238)

    (edited by CRZ on 30.11.09 0203)


I just can't forget that Namath has more INT than TD for his career. It's not the same as a starting pitcher have a sub-.500 record but similar.

All of which should actually say that I have no problem with Morris being in the HOF, but not before Blyleven.



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GodEatGod
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Since: 28.2.02

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#19 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.34
I admit, I'm completely out of my depth with baseball stuff. That said, is there any case to be made for Barry Larkin? As a childhood Reds fan, he was one of the icons of the city, the old reliable guy who was on every Reds team forever. Admittedly, the Reds stank for almost the entirety of his time there, outside of the brief run in 1990. I imagine he has no chance (and, as I said before, have not nearly the breadth of baseball knowledge necessary to say one way or the other), but, from a purely sentimental point of view, I wish he did. From what I've seen, though, Cooperstown is probably the most restrictive and elitist of all the pro sports Halls (again, I'm more than happy to be corrected if I'm wrong).



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Since: 6.1.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#20 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.53
I think Alomar SHOULD be an automatic. Take away the last two years where he bounced around and he played 15 seasons, the same amount that Jeter is at now. Compare Alomar's stats at that time to Jeter's now and they are almost identical. Jeter beats out Alomar just a little in hits, runs, average, home runs. Alomar has more steals, more RBI, played better defense, has more Gold Gloves and All-Star appearances. They have the same amount of Silver Sluggers and times in the top 10 in MVP voting. Obviously Jeter will finish with a better career but if Jeter is a Hall of Fame player now then so is Alomar.

    Originally posted by GodEatGod
    I admit, I'm completely out of my depth with baseball stuff. That said, is there any case to be made for Barry Larkin?


In Jayson Stark's book The Stark Truth (a good read) he ranks Barry Larkin as the most underrated shortstop of all-time and a Hall of Fame player. Although his argument is mainly made up of anecdotes about how great other people thought he was and not so much numbers like most people like to quote. The best he does as far as stats is to point out that Larkin's AVG/OBP/SLG was .295/.371/.444 when the league average at shortstop was .256/.317/.361. Unfortunately I doubt the voters will look that deeply into the numbers.



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