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The W - Football - 2009 NFL Hall of Fame Class (Page 2)
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MUTigermask
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Since: 8.10.03
From: Columbia MO

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#21 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.93
    Originally posted by Rush4Life


    Derrick Thomas was a stud back in the day. I remember watching the game in KC where he recorded the 7 sacks of Dave Krieg and my beloved (yet crappy) Seahawks. He would have gotten 8 had he gotten to him in the 4th quarter when he (Krieg) popped that 25 yard TD pass to Paul Skansi for the win.

    (edited by Rush4Life on 4.2.09 2154)


Damn you, that loss traumatized me as an 8 year old Chiefs fan! Why'd ya have to go and bring up that memory?

I doubt coaches were working overtime to figure out a way to deal with Ray Guy like they were the other guys on the list. He's a frickin PUNTER.
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
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Since: 2.1.02
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#22 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
    Originally posted by MUTigermask


    I doubt coaches were working overtime to figure out a way to deal with Ray Guy like they were the other guys on the list. He's a frickin PUNTER.



So, you're saying that you wouldn't want someone who could punt it out of bounds inside the 5 yard line? That wouldn't be an asset? I think defenses love punters who can do that.

If Ray Guy sucks so bad, why is the NCAA punting award named after him?



-- 2006 Time magazine Person of the Year --

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MUTigermask
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Since: 8.10.03
From: Columbia MO

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#23 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.93
No, it's definitely an asset, just not enough to get in the HOF. When did I say he sucked?

Also, he was a Raider, so I may hate him unfairly.

(edited by MUTigermask on 5.2.09 1136)
Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

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#24 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
    Originally posted by MUTigermask
    No, it's definitely an asset, just not enough to get in the HOF. When did I say he sucked?

    Also, he was a Raider, so I may hate him unfairly.

    (edited by MUTigermask on 5.2.09 1136)


That last part wasn't directed at you but most of what has been said is basically that he's a great punter, but JUST a punter. A good punter can really change the flow of a game.

I personally think he belongs in the HoF because he is in my top 5 of punters.



-- 2006 Time magazine Person of the Year --

"I remember meeting a mother of a child who was abducted by the North Koreans right here in the Oval Office."
— George W. Bush - June 26, 2008, during a Rose Garden news briefing.
Lexus
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Since: 2.1.02
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#25 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.85
There are currently no punters in the HoF. There are several players, mostly from the pre-merger era, who did happen to punt on their teams, but are listed in other positions. Ray Guy, however, is JUST a punter. Helluva barrier to break there.

...you can name five punters? Funky.



"Laugh and the world laughs with you. Frown and the world laughs at you."
-Me.
TheBucsFan
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Since: 2.1.02

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#26 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.80
    Originally posted by MUTigermask
    I doubt coaches were working overtime to figure out a way to deal with Ray Guy like they were the other guys on the list.


No, but I bet Raiders coaches slept a little easier.
brick
Bockwurst








Since: 17.1.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#27 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.00
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Originally posted by MUTigermask
      I doubt coaches were working overtime to figure out a way to deal with Ray Guy like they were the other guys on the list.


    No, but I bet Raiders coaches slept a little easier.


And being that Guy played the majority of his career in what is called the NFL's dead ball era, the field position battle was an even bigger factor than it is in today's game.

Ray deserves to be in the HOF, no question about it. However that can be said about a number of players, especially from that era. Due to the huge swing in the game favoring offenses resulting from the rules changes in '78.

Many of them get downgraded as their numbers just don't compare to the players of the 80's on.

Rule changes affecting numbers, The fact that most overlook punters, and that so many deserving players are left out every year due to either the 7 player limit, or the Voters infatuation with QB's and RB's leads to players like Guy being left out. We could spend all day creating a list thread of players who should be in, but CRZ hates lists, so I'll save that for somewhere else.
Guru Zim
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Since: 9.12.01
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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.53
Make a list of who should be in.

Exception 1a to the list rule: HOF threads in the off-season




Sign up for Folding@Home and join our team. PM me for details.

Ignorance is bliss for you, hell for me.
CRZ
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#29 Posted on | Instant Rating: 8.86
    Originally posted by Guru Zim
    Make a list of who should be in.

    Exception 1a to the list rule: HOF threads in the off-season
I'd also like to see some of these "top 5 punters" lists I keep hearing about.



Zeruel
Thirty Millionth Hit
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Silver Spring in the Land of Mary.

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#30 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.05
All stats as of the end of 2007/08 season, also in no particular order.

Sammy Baugh (Washington): Had 6 seasons with 60+ yard kicks with a career long 85. Once had an average of 51.4 for a season, and finished with a 44.9 average with 338 kicks.

Jeff Feagles (Ari, Seattle, NYG). Has 11 seasons with 60+ yard kicks with a career long of 77. Has 508 kicks inside the 20 (1 out of every 3) and a career average of 41.5

Sean Landeta (Mostly NYG and Philly): Had 18 out of 21 seasons with a 60+ yard kick. He had a career long of 74. He has 2nd most inside the 20 kicks of 381 (2 out of every 7) and had a career average of 43.5

Ray Guy (Oakland/LA): Had 13 out of 14 seasons with a 60+ yard kick. He had a career long of 74. He OFFICIALLY has 210 kicks inside the 20 (they didn't have the stat for his first 3 seasons). No counting those 3 seasons, he had 838 punts and 210 inside the 20 (1 of every 4). He had a career average of 42.4. He is also pretty much the reason we keep track of hang-time now.

Mike Scifres (San Diego). No really. Even though he has been in the league for 5 years (as of the end of the 07/08 year) and he didn't kick his first season, he has 125 kicks inside the 20 out of 290 (1 out of every 2.32, or 43%) Every year he has had a 60+ yard kick, and his longest is 71, twice. He currently has a 43.8 average. With his inside the 20 numbers, it's hard for me to keep him out of this list.

Things I did or did not consider:
Touchbacks. I can see why they are good because if the ball is out of play, it can't be run back for a good return or a TD, but it's not hard for someone punting from mid field to knock it out the end zone.
Blocks and TDs allowed. Looking at raw numbers and not the games, who is to blame for them? The punting team or the punter? So I didn't take them into account.
Inside the 20. True, it takes help from the gunners to keep it in bounds, but some of the better punters can knock it out of bounds, so I considered it.
Longest kicks and average. They are good measures to the leg of the kicker.

(edited by Zeruel on 6.2.09 1500)

(edited by Zeruel on 6.2.09 1501)

-- 2006 Time magazine Person of the Year --

"I remember meeting a mother of a child who was abducted by the North Koreans right here in the Oval Office."
— George W. Bush - June 26, 2008, during a Rose Garden news briefing.
Eddie Famous
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Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.89

    Originally posted by CRZ
      Originally posted by Guru Zim
      Make a list of who should be in.

      Exception 1a to the list rule: HOF threads in the off-season
    I'd also like to see some of these "top 5 punters" lists I keep hearing about.


From the book: "The Pro Football Historical Abstract" by Sean Lehman (Lyons Press)

1. Dave Jennings
2. Jerrel Wilson
3. Bobby Walden
4. Bobby Joe Green
5. Rohn Stark
6. Sean Landeta
7. Paul Maguire
8. Rich Camarillo
9. Sammy Baugh
10. Darren Bennett
11. Rick Tuten
12. Ray Guy

"Ask anybody who is the greatest punter in NFL history and you will get the same answer: Ray Guy. Ask them why, and they won't be able to tell you. They certainly wouldn't be able to construct a case based on statistics....Guy doesn't hold any punting records-either single season or career....you would not be able to include a statistical analysis showing why Guy was better than all other punters"

"In the eleven seasons we have those figures for Guy, he never once led the league in net average. Among qualifying punters (minimum 250 career punts), Guy ranks 44th in gross punting average and 103rd in percentage of touchbacks versus punts inside the twenty."

Quotes from the book.




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As of 2/27/06: 202 pounds "I've lost a heavyweight"
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Since: 2.1.02

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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.80
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
    "Ask anybody who is the greatest punter in NFL history and you will get the same answer: Ray Guy. Ask them why, and they won't be able to tell you. They certainly wouldn't be able to construct a case based on statistics"



Such an argument has already been linked two in two separate places within this thread.
Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

Since last post: 370 days
Last activity: 364 days
#33 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.89

    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Originally posted by Eddie Famous
      "Ask anybody who is the greatest punter in NFL history and you will get the same answer: Ray Guy. Ask them why, and they won't be able to tell you. They certainly wouldn't be able to construct a case based on statistics"



    Such an argument has already been linked two in two separate places within this thread.


And now it's been quoted straight from the book for number three.



As of 2/28/05: 101 pounds since December 7, 2004
OFFICIAL THREE-MONTH COUNT: 112 pounds on March 9, 2005
OFFICIAL SIX-MONTH COUNT: 142 pounds on June 8, 2005
OFFICIAL ONE YEAR COUNT: 187 pounds on December 7, 2005
As of 2/27/06: 202 pounds "I've lost a heavyweight"
As of 7/31/06: 224 pounds
As of 12/7/08 (four years out): Still 210 pounds down!
Now announcing for NBWA Championship Wrestling!
*2008 NBWA Personality of the Year*
www.IlliniHQ.com home of DWS Sportsnight PODCASTS, the E-Files and downstate radio home of thecubsfan!
Kevintripod
Boudin blanc








Since: 11.5.03
From: Mount Pleasant, Pa.

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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.62
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous

    From the book: "The Pro Football Historical Abstract" by Sean Lehman (Lyons Press)

    1. Dave Jennings
    2. Jerrel Wilson
    3. Bobby Walden
    4. Bobby Joe Green
    5. Rohn Stark
    6. Sean Landeta
    7. Paul Maguire
    8. Rich Camarillo
    9. Sammy Baugh
    10. Darren Bennett
    11. Rick Tuten
    12. Ray Guy



I'm a diehard Steeler fan, but Bobby Walden at number 3 ?

Really ?



The best part of waking up is not Folgers in your cup, but knowing that Chuck Norris didn't kill you in your sleep.
TheBucsFan
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Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 108 days
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#35 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.80
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous
      Originally posted by TheBucsFan
        Originally posted by Eddie Famous
        "Ask anybody who is the greatest punter in NFL history and you will get the same answer: Ray Guy. Ask them why, and they won't be able to tell you. They certainly wouldn't be able to construct a case based on statistics"



      Such an argument has already been linked two in two separate places within this thread.


    And now it's been quoted straight from the book for number three.


What? The excerpt you quoted said people cannot make a statistical argument in defense of Ray Guy as the best punter ever. Twice in this thread, links have been provided to a person making statistical arguments in defense of Ray Guy as the best punter ever.
Teapot
Kishke








Since: 1.8.02
From: Louisville KY

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#36 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.88
    Originally posted by Zeruel
    If Ray Guy sucks so bad, why is the NCAA punting award named after him?

Aren't most of those awards named after people? All that indicates is that he was a good punter.

And from what I can tell, it nobody has said Ray Guy sucks. One person said that he's overrated: he wasn't some punting god, he was merely good.



Downtown Bookie
Morcilla








Since: 7.4.02
From: The Inner City, Now Living In The Country

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#37 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.25
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    Twice in this thread, links have been provided to a person making statistical arguments in defense of Ray Guy as the best punter ever.
Just my opinion, of course, but neither of those links, cited in post #12 by brick, are very convincing:
    Originally posted by K.C. Joyner from link one
    [Guy] also fared well in net average in the other years of his career. Guy ranks fourth on the list of punters who played at least five seasons from 1976 to 1986.

    The second complaint about Guy is that he was said to be the punting equivalent of a fastball pitcher in baseball — all power and no control. His detractors say that he led the league in touchbacks four times while leading the league only once in inside-the-20-yard-line punts.

    But this approach fails to take into account that measuring in raw volumes does not put these statistics into a proper attempt-based context. Once again, take a look at how Guy fared against his competitors from 1976 to 1986. His No. 3 ranking here shows Guy was a master at short-range punting.

K.C. Joyner selected the stats upon which to make his point; in the first, Guy ranks fourth; in the second, Guy ranks third (while being referred to as a master; I would presume that the two who ranked above Guy must be consided masters as well, perhaps even grand-masters). Note also that these rankings are when Guy is compared only to his contemporaries, not to all punters all-time. This is certainly not the statistical ranking I would expect to see in an article attempting to prove that Guy was "the best punter ever."
    Originally posted by K.C. Joyner from link two
    Next up are the net punting charts for 1976-1986 for Guy and all punters who had at least five seasons of direct competition with him during that time frame (with partial seasons being counted as a season played).

    Rank Punter Total Punts Yds Ret + TB yds Net Avg.
    1 Rohn Stark 391 17567 3482 36.0
    2 Maury Buford 291 12124 1817 35.4
    3 Tom Skladany 297 12425 1943 35.3
    4 Ray Guy 76-86 841 35263 5814 35.0

    Now here is the chart comparing punts inside the 20 for that same 1976-1986 group:

    Rank Punter Total Punts In 20 In 20%
    1 Craig Colquitt 429 112 26.1%
    2 Max Runager 546 138 25.3%
    3 Ray Guy 76-86 841 210 25.0%

    Last but certainly not least is the percentage of punts returned chart for the 1976-1986 group:

    Rank Punter Total Punts # of Returns Return %
    1 Greg Cater 340 144 42.4%
    2 Maury Buford 291 131 45.0%
    3 Ray Guy 76-86 841 380 45.2%

Fourth, third, and third. Among contemporaries. In stats specifically selected by an author attempting to prove his dominance. So if this is the statistical argument that is supposed to prove that Ray Guy is "the best punter ever", color me unconvinced.



(edited by Downtown Bookie on 8.2.09 0038)


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"Share your food with the hungry, and give shelter to the homeless. Give clothes to those who need them, and do not hide from relatives who need your help." - Isaiah 58:7 (New Living Translation)
TheBucsFan
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Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 108 days
Last activity: 108 days
#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.80
    Originally posted by Downtown Bookie
      Originally posted by TheBucsFan
      Twice in this thread, links have been provided to a person making statistical arguments in defense of Ray Guy as the best punter ever.
    Just my opinion, of course, but neither of those links, cited in post #12 by brick, are very convincing:
      Originally posted by K.C. Joyner from link one
      [Guy] also fared well in net average in the other years of his career. Guy ranks fourth on the list of punters who played at least five seasons from 1976 to 1986.

      The second complaint about Guy is that he was said to be the punting equivalent of a fastball pitcher in baseball — all power and no control. His detractors say that he led the league in touchbacks four times while leading the league only once in inside-the-20-yard-line punts.

      But this approach fails to take into account that measuring in raw volumes does not put these statistics into a proper attempt-based context. Once again, take a look at how Guy fared against his competitors from 1976 to 1986. His No. 3 ranking here shows Guy was a master at short-range punting.

    K.C. Joyner selected the stats upon which to make his point; in the first, Guy ranks fourth; in the second, Guy ranks third (while being referred to as a master; I would presume that the two who ranked above Guy must be consided masters as well, perhaps even grand-masters). Note also that these rankings are when Guy is compared only to his contemporaries, not to all punters all-time. This is certainly not the statistical ranking I would expect to see in an article attempting to prove that Guy was "the best punter ever."
      Originally posted by K.C. Joyner from link two
      Next up are the net punting charts for 1976-1986 for Guy and all punters who had at least five seasons of direct competition with him during that time frame (with partial seasons being counted as a season played).

      Rank Punter Total Punts Yds Ret + TB yds Net Avg.
      1 Rohn Stark 391 17567 3482 36.0
      2 Maury Buford 291 12124 1817 35.4
      3 Tom Skladany 297 12425 1943 35.3
      4 Ray Guy 76-86 841 35263 5814 35.0

      Now here is the chart comparing punts inside the 20 for that same 1976-1986 group:

      Rank Punter Total Punts In 20 In 20%
      1 Craig Colquitt 429 112 26.1%
      2 Max Runager 546 138 25.3%
      3 Ray Guy 76-86 841 210 25.0%

      Last but certainly not least is the percentage of punts returned chart for the 1976-1986 group:

      Rank Punter Total Punts # of Returns Return %
      1 Greg Cater 340 144 42.4%
      2 Maury Buford 291 131 45.0%
      3 Ray Guy 76-86 841 380 45.2%

    Fourth, third, and third. Among contemporaries. In stats specifically selected by an author attempting to prove his dominance. So if this is the statistical argument that is supposed to prove that Ray Guy is "the best punter ever", color me unconvinced.



    (edited by Downtown Bookie on 8.2.09 0038)


So is there some other person who ranks as high as Ray Guy in all those categories that punted under like two or three different names or something?

Comparing a player to his contemporaries works for every other position and every other sport, so why not Ray Guy? All the right fielders who played before Babe Ruth pale in comparison to him, but that's because they played in different eras.

And again, is there some other punter about whom his teammates have said he's as valuable as a skill position player? I've never heard that said about anyone but Guy.

(edited by TheBucsFan on 8.2.09 1400)
Downtown Bookie
Morcilla








Since: 7.4.02
From: The Inner City, Now Living In The Country

Since last post: 170 days
Last activity: 64 days
#39 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.25
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    Comparing a player to his contemporaries works for every other position and every other sport, so why not Ray Guy? All the right fielders who played before Babe Ruth pale in comparison to him, but that's because they played in different eras.

Comparing a player to his contemporaries works perfectly for Ray Guy. It shows that he's not "the best punter ever." And those who've played before Guy don't pale in comparison; see Sammy Baugh who, as has been previously mentioned in this thread, exceeds Ray Guy statistically. The best would have ranked number one. You know, like Babe Ruth among his contemporaries.
    Originally posted by TheBucsFan
    And again, is there some other punter about whom his teammates have said he's as valuable as a skill position player?
    Originally posted by The Oakland Tribune (highbeam.com)
    The Oakland Raiders have never failed to land at least one player in the Pro Bowl. Until now.

    League-leading punter Shane Lechler got the boot. Tennessee's Craig Hentrich got the lei.

    Quarterback Rich Gannon called it "the ultimate screw job," suggesting a case could be made that Lechler was the team's most valuable player this year.



(edited by Downtown Bookie on 8.2.09 1421)


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"Share your food with the hungry, and give shelter to the homeless. Give clothes to those who need them, and do not hide from relatives who need your help." - Isaiah 58:7 (New Living Translation)
TheBucsFan
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Since: 2.1.02

Since last post: 108 days
Last activity: 108 days
#40 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.80
    Originally posted by Downtown Bookie
    The best would have ranked number one. You know, like Babe Ruth among his contemporaries.


Wait, you're saying a guy who ranks No 1 in a single category but nowhere near the top of the list in several others is automatically better than a guy (Guy) ranked close to the top in several but not No 1 in any of them? Because that's the reality of the situation with Ray Guy.

And Sammy Baugh, for one thing, punted before rule changes implemented mentioned in the arguments already linked to here, rule changes that adversely affected every single one of Ray Guy's contemporaries but had little effect on him.


      Originally posted by The Oakland Tribune
      The Oakland Raiders have never failed to land at least one player in the Pro Bowl. Until now.

      League-leading punter Shane Lechler got the boot. Tennessee's Craig Hentrich got the lei.

      Quarterback Rich Gannon called it "the ultimate screw job," suggesting a case could be made that Lechler was the team's most valuable player this year.



Eh, that's pretty vague and noncommittal. Also, you're talking about a single Pro Bowl omission, too. Ray Guy was was a nine-time all pro. He was on the NFL's 75th anniversary team (one of only two players on the team not in the hall).
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