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The W - Baseball - 2006 HOF vote (Page 2)
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The Masked Hungarian
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Since: 23.1.02
From: Staten Island NY USA

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#21 Posted on
Tim Raines was a good player, but not a Hall of Famer.
spf
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Since: 2.1.02
From: The Las Vegas of Canada

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#22 Posted on
    Originally posted by squiz
    Caminiti won't get enough to stay on the ballot. Just like Shawon Dunston when his time is up

But Dunston has a cooler honor, in that the Shawon-O-Meter is in the Smithsonian's collection I believe.



There, I feel better now.
Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

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#23 Posted on
    Originally posted by squiz
    Another guy popped into my head while we were on this topic. Tim Raines. He hasn't officially retired yet, but he is done as a player. Here's a guy who was a very good player from 1983-1996, is a 7 time all-star, has a batting title, and was an excellent leadoff hitter and base stealer, and would be the best leadoff hitter of his generation if it was for Rickey Henderson. Does he make it in?






    "You can see a million miles tonight, but you can't get very far."
    - Adam Duritz



Raines was a better leadoff hitter than Brett Butler?



***Signed by Padres Feb. 05, 2002***

squiz
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Since: 5.1.02
From: Dover, NH

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#24 Posted on
    Originally posted by Eddie Famous


    Raines was a better leadoff hitter than Brett Butler?



In my opinion, yes he was. Raines had a higher OBP (.386 to .377) and stole more bases (Raines stole 70 or more 6 times, while Butler's career high was 51). Those are the two main components of being a leadoff hitter. Then add in the fact that Raines' SLG% is so much higher as well, and Raines was a far superior player than Butler.

(edited by squiz on 5.2.02 2152)



"Disillusioned words like bullets bark as human gods aim for their mark
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Eddie Famous
Andouille








Since: 11.12.01
From: Catlin IL

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#25 Posted on
It's a fair cop.

I didn't have the stats with me, just going on the memory of Bill James talking about how great Butler was.



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The Masked Hungarian
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Since: 23.1.02
From: Staten Island NY USA

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#26 Posted on
I remember the Mets getting Butler back in the mid-90s and how he did shit for us. I still hold a grudge.
Evil Buddha
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Since: 10.1.02
From: Somerville, MA

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#27 Posted on
Yeah, but there was something about Brett Butler... he just looked like he stepped out of Central Casting to play the role of the smart, speedy, great defensive centerfielder, as if he was bred for the part. It's just he had this Hollywood look about him. Kind of like the character Patrick Wayne played in "Rustler's Rhapsody," the hero who was "a confident heterosexual." Okay, that's a bad example, and he really wasn't good after his stint with the Indians, but he had "the look."
Vince would have probably pushed him to the moon.
Seriously though, I still remember during the earthquake that hit the 1989 World Series, when Butler, a born-again Christian, said, after getting hit by an after shock, "Okay God, we're listening."
What?
Thank God he was traded from the Atlanta, because the "Scarlett" jokes would have been unbearable if he had stayed there his whole career.



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The Evil Buddha, spreading Alcoholism, Bad Humor and Chaos since 1971
ekedolphin
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Since: 12.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN; now residing in Suffolk, VA

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#28 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.01
I'd go with all three, plus Cal.

If I had to take one off of there, it'd be McGwire. Do a couple of record-breaking seasons really justify a spot in the Hall of Fame?

Well... maybe they do. I dunno. I never claimed to be a baseball expert.



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SerWolfe
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Since: 11.1.02
From: st louis

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#29 Posted on
welllllllll when you go for a few seasons with an unbelievable at bat to homerun ratio... and set a few records like first person to hit 50 or more home runs in 4 consecutive seasons... and set the major record for home runs by a rookie.... do you remember the crowds this guy was bringing to ever stadium in the national league????



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The Masked Hungarian
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Since: 23.1.02
From: Staten Island NY USA

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#30 Posted on
Cal Ripken might get credit for saving baseball post-strike but McGwire is responsible for putting it back on top
TheBucsFan
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Since: 2.1.02

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#31 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.09
Would the two or three of you who said you would take Big Mac off care to elaborate? I realize homeruns aren't exactly rare today, but the man DID hit over 500 of them.



If you set your expectations low enough, you will never fail.
ekedolphin
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Since: 12.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN; now residing in Suffolk, VA

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#32 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.01
Well, for starters, the andro controversy. From what I understand, Sosa didn't do andro, and hit only a few less home runs than McGwire did for a few years.

And you're right, home runs aren't rare today. Not at all. In fact, some outfield fences are closer to the plate than ever before in baseball. That, and some allegations I've heard about juicing balls and such.

I'm not saying McGwire should never be in the Hall of Fame, but if I had to take three, I'd take the other three mentioned first.



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Since: 3.1.02
From: SoCal 4 Life

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#33 Posted on

I personally think Henderson and Gwynn are locks on merit.

Ripken is a borderline Hall of Famer who will go in because of the consecutive games record.

McGwire is the guy I have second thoughts about. So he has over 500 homers ... so what?? Homers have become too common in the last decade to put any weight on that milestone. Dave Kingman would have over 500 homers if he played in the late 90's-early 00's instead of the late 70's-early 80's. As it is, Kingman has over 400. Do you put in Dave Kingman? No? Then why McGwire?

Butler and Raines are comparable, but neither is Hall of Fame material, imo. Raines was a better basestealer and had more power; Butler was a more selective hitter and a better fielder. I know that Butler never won a Championship -- and if Raines did, it was as a bench player. Give both guys a few breaks (Raines' Expos were Championship caliber for a few years in the 80's but didn't win, and Butler's Dodgers were a good team in '91, '94, and '95 but also didn't win) and they could have been on the bubble.

Caminiti has about as good a shot as Graig Nettles -- chances for induction are Slim and None, and Slim's left town.



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ekedolphin
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Since: 12.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN; now residing in Suffolk, VA

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#34 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.01
Another reason why McGwire's 500 home runs don't mean as much as they would have twenty years ago:

Expansion. More pitchers in the league decreases the overall quality of the pitching, allowing everyone and his mother to get hits off of certain pitchers.



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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#35 Posted on
Don't forget the real reason Big Mac's shots don't mean as much.

HGH.

Ok, I'm being catty. Maybe he isn't juiced.
The Masked Hungarian
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Since: 23.1.02
From: Staten Island NY USA

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#36 Posted on
McGwire was hitting 49 as a skinny rookie too!

And of course no one in baseball besides McGwire uses supplements/hormones/steroids.

Guru Zim
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#37 Posted on
Let me edit your statement and then make a rebuttal like it was what you actually said This is known as twisting someone's words...

"And of course no one in baseball [playing today] besides McGwire uses supplements/hormones/steroids."

This is exactly why the HR are not as important as they used to be. The guys already in the hall with 500,600, 700 HR did it through hard work and talent. Guys today that are juicing are about as legitimate as a high score on Tony Hawk using a Game Shark.

I can't find the original ESPN article - the only quoted text I can find is on what appears to be a pro-steroid site... but here it is. Originally from ESPN, by way of the Google cache of Steroid-encyclopedia.com.


    More news about steroids in baseball


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Former major leaguers and current ESPN analysts Brian McRae and Rob Dibble talk about steriod use in baseball:

    Brian McRae:
    The problem is all the performance-enhancing substances across the board, not just steroids. On a smaller scale, this includes Andro and painkillers, but it goes as far as growth hormones and the stuff people are getting from Latin America that is intended for use in animals like horses and sheep, but players are using it to make them stronger.

    Anywhere from 50 to 70 percent of the league has used some sort of performance-enhancing substance. And just because Andro is available over the counter, you can't really separate it, because nothing is hard to get. You can get ahold of growth hormones just as easy as you can Andro. When teams go to San Diego, players go down to Tijuana and pick illegal stuff up. You can get prescriptions filled in Canada that are illegal in the States, so when teams go up to Toronto or Montreal, a player can walk into any drug store and get stuff they could never get in America, and it's perfectly legal. It's hard to regulate something that's illegal where 28 teams play, but not illegal where two teams play.

    Baseball can test all it wants - but what is it testing for? If you don't know what you're testing for, how are you going to find it? There are ingredients in some substances that mask other substances. Even if the league began testing, nothing would change. New stuff comes out on a monthly basis. People will just go to the new thing that can't be detected yet. Some players have pretty good chemists; they work on things and the players use their bodies like a guinea pig. No one knows what the longterm effects could be, but players are willing to take years off their life to make some money.
    The worst thing is, guys are starting to use this stuff a lot earlier. It's starting down at the high school and college levels now. There is a mentality that says, "If 10 people around you are benefiting from something, maybe you should try it too." As long as there is competition, people are going to find a way to beat it. And as long as there is money involved, people are going to a find way to cheat.

    Rob Dibble:
    I think the 40 percent figure that Cliff Floyd cited is low. No pitchers are using, so that leaves about 450 hitters on big-league rosters. I'd say 50 percent of the guys in the major leagues are using right now, which is sad, because there are plenty of good over-the-counter supplements. There is no reason to be injecting anabolic steroids and dianabol like they did in years past. You shouldn't need illegal steroids anymore.

    There are two big reasons why players still use steroids: 1) they aren't aware of how dangerous steroid use can be; and 2) they think it will be the difference between getting in the major leagues, and staying in the major leagues.

    You'll never be able to stop guys from taking something that will enable them to hit 30-40 home runs instead of 15-20 home runs. It can be the difference between making $2 million a year and $10 million a year. Or guys in the minors who are borderline big-league players can become very good major leaguers, maybe even All-Stars. Steroids are easy to come by, so it's all right there for the taking.

    When I was a player rep, I was shot down year after year when I voted for steroid testing. The union will never go for it. But they need a wakeup call. Some responsibility has to fall to the league and the union, who should be less concerned with dollar signs and more concerned with the health of their players.



TheBucsFan
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Since: 2.1.02

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#38 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.09
OK, this is kind of lame, but still worth consideration. When a player/executive/umpire/manager/writer is elected to the hall of fame, their contributions to the sport in general are supposed to be taken into account. If McGwire's playing credentials aren't enough, remember that he, along with Ripken, Sosa and maybe a one or two others carried baseball in the post-strike period. It was his run at the record that saved baseball from obscurity (relative obscurity, I should say). He reached a milestone (500 homeruns) that to some has lost a lot of meaning, but was still the dominant slugger of his time when healthy, and he helped save baseball.



Caring is the first step towards disappointment.
The Masked Hungarian
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Since: 23.1.02
From: Staten Island NY USA

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#39 Posted on
Where was the rebuttal Guru? All you did was show that while steroids are wrong, there is nothing wrong with players using supplements today.

"because there are plenty of good over-the-counter supplements. There is no reason to be injecting anabolic steroids and dianabol like they did in years past. You shouldn't need illegal steroids anymore."

If a player maximizes his body legally, and to my knowledge Andro was not/is not illegal then where is the argument?

There is NO WAY that McGwire is not a first ballot over 90% hall of famer. Stats, popularity and the drama of 1998 proves this. I have yet to see anyone present a logical counter argument.

(edited by The Masked Hungarian on 19.2.02 1653)
Guru Zim
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Since: 9.12.01
From: Bay City, OR

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#40 Posted on
Well, I was letting the article speak for itself.

    You'll never be able to stop guys from taking something that will enable them to hit 30-40 home runs instead of 15-20 home runs. It can be the difference between making $2 million a year and $10 million a year. Or guys in the minors who are borderline big-league players can become very good major leaguers, maybe even All-Stars. Steroids are easy to come by, so it's all right there for the taking.
Take Dibble at his word that guys that are hitting 30-40 now are not guys that would have been doing this in the past. If you believe this, and I do, then I think that you have to realize that the 500 HR barrier doesn't mean as much.

Think of it like inflation. We talk about salaries from 1920 compared to the current value of the dollar. No one would say that $100 in 1920 money is the same as $100 in 2002 money. It's the same with HR if you consider that Dibble is estimating that guys are upwards of doubling their home run production today with steroids and performance enhancing drugs / supplements.

If we assume that Hank Aaron / Babe Ruth did it without supplements and drugs, then you have to shift their production to make up for the supplement factor. If you bump them by 20%, which is modest when you look at the kinds of numbers being put up today vs the past, then Aaron goes over 900 HR in todays currency. The 500 HR benchmark would become 600 HR. Looking at it like that, I don't think that McGwire fits the bill.

Did McGwire help baseball? Absolutely. Give him an exhibit on the chase to 70 in the hall and never take it out. Mention that he was the first player ever to break 70. Does he get in the hall for it? I don't personally think so.

If he had had 2 more seasons without injuries, I don't think it would be a question. As it is, I think he is in maybe land at best, and I wouldn't vote him in.


//edit: Roger Maris hit 61 home runs, shattering the mark of Ruth. He had the record from 1961 - 1998. He's not in the hall. Why? He didn't have the numbers, despite playing in 7 World Series. Home run records are not an automatic entry to the Hall.


(edited by Guru Zim on 19.2.02 1705)
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My thoughts would be, Matsui in left will be okay, and sheffield in Right is okay. Lofton could stary in 90% of the leagues center field positions. Bernie comes back, but lets be honest, his knees are shot.
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