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The W - Current Events & Politics - 20 Things We've Learned Since 9/11 (Page 6)
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OlFuzzyBastard
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Since: 28.4.02
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#101 Posted on
I'm just wondering how thrilled CRZ is that this thread has made it to 100 posts? :)



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eviljonhunt81
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Since: 6.1.02
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#102 Posted on
I just wonder why me pointing out how a hatchet job did not occur and providing some solid information means that the media is liberal and out to get conservatives.



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ekedolphin
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Since: 12.1.02
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#103 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.52
Hey, Kid Brooklyn...

You got something against sea mammals? LOL...

Anywya... there was something else in the first post of the thread that I wish to address, and it has nothing to do with 9/11 or Buchanan. I read the thread fairly thoroughly and I think that this issue hasn't been touched yet outside of the first post.

18. We've learned that Bush&Co. has been a total disaster for the environment, in every way: from reneging on its campaign promise to cut carbon-dioxide and other greenhouse emissions, to backing away from higher fuel-efficiency in cars (we could cut our dependence on foreign oil 20% just by increasing fuel efficiency by 5%), to giving breaks to corporate polluters all across the country, to permitting increased arsenic levels in the water, etc. etc.

Now how can anyone deny that the Bush administration doesn't seem to give a shit about the enviornment? Hell, the fact that Bush wanted to start drilling in the Alaskan National Wildlife Refuge was one of the main reasons I voted for Gore!

I think it's ironic how Republicans are all, Let's fuck up the environment to reduce our dependency on foreign oil! when it was Ronald Reagan who took a big dump all over Carter's proposed energy bill that would have helped reduce our dependency on foreign oil. Reagan showed that he didn't give a shit, up to the point where he actually removed the solar panels that Carter had installed in the White House. We've been needing to find alternative sources of energy for sooooo many years now, and it seems like the Republicans are simply content to take the oil wherever we can get it. To hell with the environment. If killing a few polar bears will give us enough gas so we can stop buying from Saddam for maybe ten or twenty years tops, then dammit, those polar bears are going to DIE!

The bottom line is this: There is a finite amount of oil in the world. A lot of people seem to think that we'll always have gas whenever we need it, but nothing could be further from the truth. When it's gone, it's gone, and we're all going to be riding bicycles to work and paddling canoes across the Atlantic if we don't get serious about alternative energy sources.

(edited by ekedolphin on 12.8.02 1429)


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chazerizer
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Since: 11.7.02
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#104 Posted on
Agreed.

Just out of curiosity, do you include nuclear power as an alternative energy source, or is that evil too?



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Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
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#105 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.09

    Originally posted by ekedolphin
    Hell, the fact that Bush wanted to start drilling in the Alaskan National Wildlife Refuge was one of the main reasons I voted for Gore!




Because we all know that Bush is evil for wanting to safely drill on 1% of a barren wasteland that even the animals don't populate for DECADES worth of oil that could possibly preclude the invasion of Iraq(let's be frank that's why they want to invade...)
OlFuzzyBastard
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Since: 28.4.02
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#106 Posted on
DECADES worth of oil? Even the most generous and most conservative commentators are saying it's about a three month's supply.



"The only difference between lilies and turds are those humankind have agreed upon, and I don't always agree."
---George Carlin

"Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music."
---Anon.
ekedolphin
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Since: 12.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN; now residing in Suffolk, VA

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#107 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.52
Well, chazerizer...

I'm not going to say that nuclear power is evil per se, but it's certainly not a clean form of energy. If we have a nuclear meltdown big enough, the fallout from that could very well be felt all the way around the world.

By alternative energy source, I'm referring to clean and safe alternatives. Solar power. Water power. Wind power. Things that God has already given us in abundance, all we need to do is develop the technology to make those things a viable alternative to what we've been doing.

And anyway, continuing with the point that OlFuzzyBastard just made... even if it is decades of oil that we could get (and I doubt that very much), once that's used up, what then? Is World War III going to be fought so that the winners can get dibs on oil? What about when all of that is gone, and there is no more oil left in the world? It will happen eventually, because as we know, the creation of oil takes millions of years. Once we've used all that up, we're all going to be S.O.L. (and you know what that means) unless we start working towards building new ways to harness unlimited energy.

The difference between solar power and oil? Using oil drains the supply of oil slowly, while lining the pockets of all those bastards at OPEC. But we shouldn't take that to mean we should rip apart our own soil to get oil for ourselves (which would take years to refine, in any case). Solar power doesn't drain the sun, obviously, and you can get as much of it as you need. Water power simply requires water running at very high water pressures-- waterfalls, for instance. Wind power requires, uh, wind. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that these are the things we should be going for!

I blame the gas companies for protecting their own interests over the common good. I blame the car companies for apparently getting into bed with the gas companies-- hell, I've heard reports that Ford has come up with a more fuel-efficient hybrid car that's not going to be released because of the gas companies. And I blame the Republican party for being so short-sighted that they're willing to go to war with the OPEC countries just to grab a resource that's going to be gone soon anyway. Hey, isn't this why we ostensibly came to Kuwait's aid during the Gulf War, because some other country was invading them for their oil?

Edit:

Have you read CNN.com recently? There's this mile-thick blanket of smog covering a goodly portion of the Asian continent because of the way they burn fuel and don't take care of the environment. That's another reason to seek alternative sources of energy-- they don't pollute, so they allow us to get down to the important pieces of business such as cleaning up the mess we've made before it's too late.

What I'm really concerned about is that hole in the ozone layer over Antarctica that was publicized heavily about ten years ago or so. If Antarctica gets too hot, the polar ice caps will start to melt, the ocean levels will rise, and you can kiss New York, Virginia Beach, and a bunch of other ocean-side cities goodbye.

(edited by ekedolphin on 13.8.02 0123)


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Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#108 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.09

    Originally posted by OlFuzzyBastard
    DECADES worth of oil? Even the most generous and most conservative commentators are saying it's about a three month's supply.


The North Slope has been compared to the haul that has been pulled out of Saudi Arabia for the last sixty years. So this isn't exactly small potatoes.

I do think it's funny that in case "conservative commantators" about oil are such free-market economic types like the Sierra Club, ELF, etc.
Scott Summets
Sujuk








Since: 27.6.02

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#109 Posted on
My friends dad is a nuclear scientist, and I can say that while Nuclear power isn't 100% safe, it's much safer than people think. Everyone associates the way we use nuclear power to be like the way we use nuclear bombs, which is very wrong. The chance of a meltdown is near impossible with today's technology. Our plants are many times safer and better than Russia's, so we really have nothing to worry about. If we ever discovered a way to safely store nuclear waste, nuclear power would be the safest energy ever. On the topic of energy, according to Einstein's laws, if we could tap the energy a black hole gives off while it annihilates one drop of water, we could power the Earth for thousands of years.



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Grimis
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Since: 11.7.02
From: MD

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#110 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.09
Time to spend some time refuting ekedolphin's remarks.

1. Alternate energy sources aren't nearly as close to being cheap and abundant as most people think. It costs a lot of money to make the components to make a little bit of power at this point. I support the further developmetn of such power, but it's not practical yet. It also takes fuel to power such research into alternative energy.

2. The Republican Party is not behind the war in Iraq. The warmonger Neoconservatives are. I am one of many Republicans who think the war is bad bad news(insomuch as for the reasons currently being espoused).

3.Rememeber this about smog: the air and water is a LOT cleaner now than it was 75 or a 100 years ago.
ekedolphin
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Since: 12.1.02
From: Indianapolis, IN; now residing in Suffolk, VA

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#111 Posted on | Instant Rating: 4.52
Grimis,

You bring up a few very good points. It's nice to see that not all Republicans are wanting to bomb everybody who's ever pissed us off.

However, I still believe that if the Republicans hadn't been all DEATH to alternative sources of energy! back in the '80s, we would already have found the means to make such sources more cheap and abundant.

Scott,

Nice to hear that nuclear power isn't quite as bad as I thought it was. I still remember Three-Mile Island and Chernobyl, but I'll accept your viewpoint on this particular issue as being more educated than mine.

But your comments do bring up the question: how can we find a way to safely store or dispose of nuclear waste? Dumping everything into a landfill in the Southwest isn't the answer, in my opinion-- especially because I believe that nuclear waste has a half-life of thousands of years or so.



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Jaguar
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Since: 23.1.02
From: Phoenix, AZ

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#112 Posted on
Well, on nuclear power, remember that a lot of the plants in the country are getting on towards their 20th or 30th birthday or even older. These plants are nowhere near as safe as the newer generation ones, and for the most part their are no plans on how to decommision/upgrade them. If I recall there is a Chernobyl style plant somewhere down here on the southeastern seaboard, still chugging along and being used to produce weapons grade plutonium. Once plants like these are shutdown/upgraded/replaced, then I'll feel safe with nuclear power.

-Jag

But the true fact of the matter is we have no real means for disposing of nuclear waste. So it is not to be considered a 'clean' form of energy.



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chazerizer
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Since: 11.7.02
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#113 Posted on
At least some of the plants (especially the Russian ones, which are the ones that really are bad) are getting upgrades, in the form of new safety systems, etc., etc. I don't know about any of the ones in the United States, but several plants in eastern europe that were built by the Russians are being worked on, as well as some in China. There was also one in England about 5 years back, I think. Not sure about all the dates/places/etc. though.



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Since: 12.2.02
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#114 Posted on
If Buchanan was so good, why was he kicked out of the Republican Party, and his very presence in the Reform Party splintered the group, rendering the third party movement impotent?



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#115 Posted on

    Originally posted by deadbeater
    If Buchanan was so good, why was he kicked out of the Republican Party, and his very presence in the Reform Party splintered the group, rendering the third party movement impotent?
That's what they WANT you to believe! The Republicans paid Buchanan HANDSOMELY to scuttle the Reformers and it was *worth every penny.*



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Since: 6.1.02
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#116 Posted on
So THATS where VInce got the idea to send Russo and Ferrara to the WCW to sabotage the company...



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oldschoolhero
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Since: 2.1.02
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#117 Posted on
Just found this thread. I'm going to offer my opinion on the whole caboodle, but beforehand I feel it fair to tell you: I'm English. Now, whoever wants to decry my opinions has a valid excuse because I'm not at the centre of what is going on.

9/11 has happened. There is no taking it back and arguing over the semantics of it and using it to further a political gender (as the writer of the original column seems to be doing) is just not acceptable. Therefore I have no interest in the detailed political ramblings that have spread out through this thread. What I do have a view on, however, is how this situation has been handled and what led up to the events of 9/11.

Nothing can justify what happened on 9/11. At all. The American's actions back in the Gulf and Cold War were deplorable, especially considering how those aiding them were abandoned after completing their set dirty work. I fully understand why a lot of Afghans have issues with America and their way of life. But attacking civilian soil, decades after the fact, is a terrible response. Especially when doing it as a fanatical organisation, which adds no credence to their otherwise fair problems with America. It would be akin to Germany blindsiding us now for the contrywide ruin following the Cold War: not logical. So yes, I believe that there really was no justification for what happened on 9/11. Having said that, America's actions of the past were responsible for the attacks. Had the country not acted like the World Police and constantly became involved in Middle East wrangles for their own benefit, there would not be the widespread conflict between the two sides. So while the previous American actions do NOT JUSTIFY the Spet. 11 attacks, they do carry some of the responsibility for it. To believe that your country has never put a foot wrong and has constantly fought for justice and equal rights for all is very narrow-minded and ignorant. I am man enough to admit that my country has had some major fuckups in the past (hello, Falklands) and you should be too.

Now, onto the response to the attacks. One word: bullshit. Tell me this: when was the last time you heard reports on the possible whereabouts of Osama bin Laden? Or any of his close associates? Rather than the pinpoint operation that it SHOULD have been, the retaliation became an unfocussed assault on a wide array of enemies. Had both America and Britain focussed it's resources on using intelligence and well-trained troops, they could have found those directly responsible for 9/11 long ago and polished them off for good. No-one would dare dispute the actions in the wake of such a tragedy. Instead, Afghanistan has been bombed repeatedly and there are talks of going after Saddam once again. Why? What has he got to do with 9/11? Diddley squat. 9/11 is being used as an excuse to start a war with one of the few men to escape us in the past. And that's wrong. It has no connection with the Sept. 11 attacks, and it is the same sort of action which, as mentioned earlier, led to the hatred of the West in the past.

And as far as the "civilians die in war" argument: totally hypocritical. It's fair for us to cry about our dead civilians, but it's a fact of life when it happens elsewhere, and by our own hand? Debate the circustances of the deaths all you, civilian lives are civilian lives, and whether they die by terrorist attack (which I'm sure many Afghans saw as "part of war") or bombing raids is irrelevant.

Overall, the loss of human life takes greater precedent over the political situation that surrounds it. Liberals and conservatives should be united on at least one point: no more innocent killings, on EITHER side. Evil begets evil, as shown by the knock-on effect of both World Wars. And unless we step in and change the cycle now, it ain't ever gonna stop. We have to stop looking at it as a matter of "OUR country" and look at it as "OUR world". Humans are gonna have to live together on it for a lot longer than our lifetimes, so we might as well start establishing a peaceful legacy now, rather than keep past hatreds alive for no other reason than territoriality.

And so, this comment is now open for you to rip apart.






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You know... This isn't that much different from US airports. Every country has their reasons for acting the way they do. It's my opinion that before bashing someone, one should (at least try) see the world through their point of view.
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