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The W - Pro Wrestling - 1997 survivor series incident
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val123
Chaurice








Since: 3.10.03

Since last post: 2999 days
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#1 Posted on
This is a three part question
a> Give your first inital reactions to seeing this on ppv, i.e did you think it was a work or a shoot?

b> did anybody see this coming, especially with the leading industry newsletters (pro wrestling torch, pro wrestling obersver)?

c>did macmahon do the right thing?

(edited by val123 on 2.10.03 2352)
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Landjager








Since: 10.1.03
From: Enter your city here

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Y!:
#2 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.89
A. I didn't really know what a work or shoot was at the time. So I guess you can say I thought it was a work. WWF was trying alot of new things at the time, so I was really expecting Bret to show up the next night and beat the shit out of HBK. I also thought it was a real shitty ending.

B. No, nobody outside the inner circle in WWF would have known. It was clear that he was leaving, but noone saw this coming. Besides, I think it would have gotten to Bret before it would have gotten to Meltzer or Keller.

C. I've been through that time and time again on the net. It's gotten beyond passe.

If you go to Bret Hart's website you can find Meltzers observer article that was written right after all that went down. It lays it out chronlogically, so that should pretty much should answer any questions you have about Montreal.



I may be ugly, but your stupid, and I can get a job.
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Since: 9.7.02
From: Sleep (That's where I'm a viking)

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Y!:
#3 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.21
A. I was shocked more than anything. My dad (I was 10 at the time) I think knew that it was a shoot, judging by the look in Bret's eyes, but I was just amazed that Bret would tap to the Sharpshooter.

B. I don't think anyone besides Vince, HBK and maybe Earl Hebner knew about it until it happened.

C. I've probably said this before, but I think Bret was being a little overprotective of his fake title that didn't really mean anything. That having been said, it probably wouldn't have killed business to hotshot the title to Michaels the night after Survivor Series. Unless I'm crossing my Benoit and Bret stories, Bret was willing to drop the title to anybody, as long as it wasn't Shawn Michaels in Montreal at Survivor Series. All in all, given the fact the Austin-McMahon feud may not have happened if not for this (the creation of Mr. McMahon, the evil owner), I say Vince did the right thing.



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Since: 25.2.03
From: North Yorkshire, England.

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#4 Posted on
A) This is a can of worms. At the time I thought it was, well I didn't know what to make of it. I actually watched the show again last week and from the build up, the promos and the match itself I am inclined to feel that it was a work. It's almost glaringly obvious if you look back at how the match was hyped and booked.

B) I believe it was a worked-shoot angle and done on a need to know basis. I would say that only Bret, Vince, HBK and Hebner knew what was going to happen. Oh yeah, probably Bret's wife too.

C) Vince did the right thing if you look at it from it being a shoot standpoint. Bret should have dropped the title to anyone and at anytime as and when requested.
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

Since last post: 1 day
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#5 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.93
Playing Dave is good times for Justin Shapiro.

"I think Bret was being a little overprotective of his fake title that didn't really mean anything ... Unless I'm crossing my Benoit and Bret stories, Bret was willing to drop the title to anybody, as long as it wasn't Shawn Michaels in Montreal at Survivor Series."

You're correct. Bret and Vince both agreed that Bret would drop the title in a fourway in Springfield at the December PPV with Michaels, Undertaker, and Shamrock. But he wasn't being protective a fake belt so much as he just didn't want to do this particular job to Michaels in Montreal, after Michaels had refused to job for him. (Which was his option, be it right or wrongfully, with his creative control clause.)

As for the "work" conspiracy, the fun is taken out of it when, in the Owen Hart wrongful death suit, the WWF legal team argued that Bret's bitterness about Montreal was behind the lawsuit. All the depositions given under oath treated it as a shoot, and Bret would have had any easy counter to that by "admitting" it was a work. What's the upside on both sides maintaining the con with millions of dollars and/or perjury charges at stake?
Tribal Prophet
Andouille








Since: 9.1.02
From: Winnipeg, MB, Canada

Since last post: 45 days
Last activity: 2 days
#6 Posted on | Instant Rating: 7.18
    Originally posted by Kevin Malton
    A) This is a can of worms. At the time I thought it was, well I didn't know what to make of it. I actually watched the show again last week and from the build up, the promos and the match itself I am inclined to feel that it was a work. It's almost glaringly obvious if you look back at how the match was hyped and booked.

    B) I believe it was a worked-shoot angle and done on a need to know basis. I would say that only Bret, Vince, HBK and Hebner knew what was going to happen. Oh yeah, probably Bret's wife too.

    C) Vince did the right thing if you look at it from it being a shoot standpoint. Bret should have dropped the title to anyone and at anytime as and when requested.


Because this has all been said and argued so many times, I'll just say my part real quick and move on.

A) Glaringly obvious except that it wasn't a work.

B) How many "worked-shoot" angles have been done in the history of time? Pillman/WCW? I know the conspiracy theories have everyone thinking that we're all STILL being worked, even though Bret's brother died working for Vince, and yet Bret still 'supposedly' kept his silence about their "Hee, hee, we fooled some people on the Wienerboard" work. I understand at the time people thinking in might be a work because it was suck a confusing thing to watch unfold, but to look back now and say that it was after all that's happened to both sides, well....

C) You're right here, except Vince gave Bret (in his legal contract) the right to choose how and when he lost the title, and when Vince didn't like the answer Bret gave him, Vince took his ball and went home like a 4 year old Billionaire.


Tribal Prophet



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JST
Toulouse








Since: 20.1.02
From: Quebec City, CAN

Since last post: 30 days
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#7 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.42
Why is this still being discussed?



dr wagner jr
Chorizo








Since: 21.9.03
From: Mexico City

Since last post: 2914 days
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#8 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.58
I must admit that im a little short with the storyline about the "Montreal Incident"...i have a lot of different point of views of what happened at this match...but honestly i only trust my pals at the Wienerboard...

Pleaseeee someone give a little sinopsis of the facts...!

Thanks!

Grateful Dr Wagner jr





There's no man in Earth strong enough to hold a Wagner Drive!!
JustinShapiro
Scrapple
Moderator








Since: 12.12.01
From: Pittsburgh, PA

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#9 Posted on | Instant Rating: 5.93
The Observer article written that week.

It's always good to have a Montreal thread each month. That way you can keep up with Confidential.

(edited by JMShapiro on 4.10.03 1017)
dr wagner jr
Chorizo








Since: 21.9.03
From: Mexico City

Since last post: 2914 days
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#10 Posted on | Instant Rating: 2.58
Ok i got the story line right now...
Thank You

It's kind sad....Bret career wasnt supossed to end that way..

Fuck The Corporate World!





There's no man in Earth strong enough to hold a Wagner Drive!!
Craigerson
Cotechino








Since: 4.8.03
From: Maryland

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#11 Posted on | Instant Rating: 0.00
    Originally posted by dr wagner jr
    It's kind sad....Bret career wasnt supossed to end that way...


It didn't. It ended with a horribly booked WCW run. :-P
Crip
Mettwurst








Since: 1.3.03

Since last post: 3873 days
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#12 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.82
    Originally posted by JMShapiro
    (Which was his option, be it right or wrongfully, with his creative control clause.)


I think its important to establish, that Bret didn't have creative control in the sense Hogan has in the past with WWE and WCW. If I remember correctly, the term was actually "resonable creative control". Whether it is "resonable" to flat out refuse to do a job is another matter.

Purely on employee-employer relationship, Bret HAD to do the job, regardless of his personal preferance. Morally or ethically speaking, he was screwed.

(edited by Crip on 4.10.03 1559)


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Snookum
Kishke








Since: 19.6.03
From: Louisville

Since last post: 2617 days
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#13 Posted on
Going with a different direction with this, what do people think of the documentary, Wrestling With Shadows?

I missed the whole thing, as I was out of wrestling between about 1990 - 1999. I do have very mixed feelings about Wrestling With Shadows anyway, as Bret is played up to be such a godly saint that it is hard to feel the makers of the film were trying to be objective at all. Certainly in light of the Walton-like family dinner with the Harts filmed, featuring many a people that have been shown to be a bit at odds with each other in reality.

My gut feeling about WWS that I tell others when they ask me what I think about buying is that it is an interesting take on the situation, but just about as real as Vince's standpoint ultimately.

Kevintripod
Boudin blanc








Since: 11.5.03
From: Mount Pleasant, Pa.

Since last post: 5 days
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#14 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.48
    Originally posted by Snookum
    Going with a different direction with this, what do people think of the documentary, Wrestling With Shadows?




I thought it was possibly the best program I have ever seen on A&E, and one of the best documentaries I have ever seen on television.



"This just got a hell of a lot better." - Stifler, American Pie
Peter The Hegemon
Lap cheong








Since: 11.2.03
From: Hackettstown, NJ

Since last post: 5 days
Last activity: 19 min.
#15 Posted on | Instant Rating: 6.57
I agree with Tribal Prophet, and diagree with Crip. The simple fact is, Vince made a deal with Bret. And, let's remember, he made that deal so he could get out of an existing contract with Bret that he no longer believed was in his interests. Bret never refused to job at all, he just refused to job in that particular match, and I can't see how that could possibly be outside of his "reasonable creative control". Vince broke the terms of his deal, and Bret really should have sued him and gotten very substantial compensation for it.

Having said that, there's no question that Vince, whether this was intentional or not, established himself as a money-drawing heel character with that incident. So he didn't do the right thing, but he did do a smart (and/or lucky) thing.
ShotGunShep
Frankfurter








Since: 20.2.03

Since last post: 2516 days
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#16 Posted on | Instant Rating: 3.00
    Originally posted by Peter The Hegemon
    I agree with Tribal Prophet, and diagree with Crip. The simple fact is, Vince made a deal with Bret. And, let's remember, he made that deal so he could get out of an existing contract with Bret that he no longer believed was in his interests. Bret never refused to job at all, he just refused to job in that particular match, and I can't see how that could possibly be outside of his "reasonable creative control". Vince broke the terms of his deal, and Bret really should have sued him and gotten very substantial compensation for it.

    Having said that, there's no question that Vince, whether this was intentional or not, established himself as a money-drawing heel character with that incident. So he didn't do the right thing, but he did do a smart (and/or lucky) thing.

I really don't think he could have sued Vince and won. Wrestlers don't make contractual agreements on who is going to win each match.



You Samoans are all the same. You have no faith in the essential decency of the white man's culture.
Rush4Life
Summer sausage








Since: 2.1.02
From: Tacoma, WA

Since last post: 37 days
Last activity: 9 days
#17 Posted on
At the time, I had just started to get online and saw some rumors so it felt different watching that PPV. I definately felt something wasn't exactly right but couldn't figure it out.

The only people that knew anything from the video that is out there about this was obviously Bret, HBK, VKM and the brass in WCW at the time because that contract tendered to Bret was signed I believe.

I do not think there was wrong or right way to do this. I do not think that Bret was out of line but at the same time, I can see how dropping the belt the next night would kill the belt's credibility. I think that there are too many variables that were involved that caused a lot of headaches.



Rush4Life

"I believed what I was told, I thought it was a good life, I thought I was happy. Then I found something that changed it all...." -Anonymous, 2112
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